I had an interesting dialog

Basically I was on Digg and I found a link to a study (http://www.physorg.com/news178819089.html) about how believers have egocentric beliefs... i.e. that God agrees with them on issues most of the time (and not the other way around). While I was reading it, I came across a Google Ad that said:

Is There a God? - Here are six straight-forward reasons to conclude that God exists - www.everystudent.com

I went to that website and the first thing that I noticed was that my Web of Trust indicator changed to amber. I skimmed through the initial page that I was linked to, which is basically an advocacy of intelligent design and whatnot, complete with quotes from people that would most likely disavow their narrative being used to advocate Christian theology.

I knew that I was in for quite an intellectually bleak discussion when I read the part of the article that says

If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.³

Mercury has an atmosphere. And I'm not sure what the big deal is about free hydrogen (?). And along with contemporary fine-tuned hypotheses, no explanation is given regarding why these particular magnitudes have been chosen. What makes it worse is that little three at the end. The article's reference is

(3) R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20

Really? You're using a 63 year old book to source a scientific statement? You couldn't find anything more recent? Astronomy has changed quite a bit in the past 63 years, especially since back then they didn't know Mercury had an atmosphere. And we've actually sent several probes to Jupiter now. In any case, I remember reading in Cosmos about how Jupiter could possibly sustain life in the form of these balloon-like organisms. And Cosmos was written in 1980... again, I'm pretty sure that the astrobiology scene today has changed significantly from 1980, and in the direction gives more opportunities for life to exist, not less.

Anyways, I'm not going to bore you with the whole thing, so I'm just going to highlight a few outrageous statements. This is from the section on DNA (emphasis mine):

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.

Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

Exactly? I wish that were true. The reality is that there are many problems with DNA, which is why we have things like cancer. Cancer is basically uninhibited growth, caused by genetic material not perfectly doing what the author of this article says it does. How can the instruction be so precise when cancer is a leading cause of deaths in the world? In fact, the reason why evolution even occurs is because of the volatility of DNA; it's as a result of its "imperfection" and "imprecision" that mutations (duplications, inversions, deletions, and so on) occur.

Moving on, the author states:

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?!

Last time I checked, you don't have to spend time refuting God to be an atheist. You don't have to do anything to God at all. All you have to do is lack a belief in god (I'm not going into detail in "hard atheism" and "soft atheism" and other minuscule details that are irrelevant). If you want to advocate a lack of belief in god, go ahead. But that's not a requirement to being an atheist (or a member of a faith that doesn't require preaching). This is actually something very important that happens in the Christian mind. They think that because one of the tenets of their beliefs is that they must convince others to have them too, they think that atheists operate in the same way in that they want others to become atheists. The problem is by assuming that a particular characteristic of their group (evangelicalism), is also true of other groups. This happens all the time, and not just with religion.

The rest of that paragraph is more of the same, saying how God is so important to her (I'm assuming it's a she, because the author's name is Marylin, but who knows). Doesn't sound like she was quite an atheist when she was still letting God control her life. Then some comparison of herself to C.S. Lewis and "it all makes sense".

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God.

Well sure. That's because all the other religions whose people claimed to be God were killed by Christians. They weren't taken to some conference room and debated and proven wrong and then slowly waned away as people began to realize that they were believing in nonsense; they were killed, their wives and daughters forced to become sexual slaves, and their property stolen and declared to be God's. We actually have a term for declaring divinity; it's called Apotheosis.

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead.

Many other people in the Bible are claimed to have performed miracles. Even the Pharaoh! So how is that proof of divinity? What makes Jesus's miracles so special so as to warrant as evidence of his divinity? And again, this is conceding that such things even happened, which is a very huge concession given how inaccurate the Bible is historically.

Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us.

Why does God have human emotions? Why does he want a (Going to assume an emotional) relationship with us? How can we have a meaningful relationship with God anyways? He's God. He doesn't share experiences with us or go to school with us or able to relate (the root word of relationship) to us in any way. To declare a relationship with God is akin to declaring a relationship with an ant. Anyone who claims some sort of relationship with God is deluding himself.

I looked to the sidebar and I noticed a "Q & A Forum"; interesting to call it a forum, where one side offers both the questions and the answers. I expected some invision boards or something, but no, just a few questions and answers which are poorly worded and I wouldn't care to ask (Is God a woman?).

One of them asks, "How can a loving God send people to hell?"

The answer?

"...God is giving people what they want"

Yes, that's right. People want eternal suffering and damnation (!?). They crave for it. They beg and plead to God, saying PLEASE PLEASE SEND ME TO ETERNAL SUFFERING AND MISERY!

What a joke. Anyways, I used the chat of the website and I had a discussion with some guy called Rick, posted here.... I hope I got everything right.


Please wait for a site operator to respond.

You are now chatting with 'Rich'

Rich: this is Rich how can I help you?

Jason: hi

Jason: how can you help me?

Rich: I can help try and answer questions you might have about God

Jason: okay

Jason: I have a question

Jason: your website says

Jason: If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury.

Rich: which article are you referring to?

Jason: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?gclid=CJ-joOmgtJ4CFRkGswodYDHymg

Jason: just wanted to let you know that Mercury does in fact have an atmosphere

Jason: and many other planets smaller than earth have atmospheres

Rich: an atmosphere that can sustain life??

Jason: that's not what your article says

Jason: but in any case

Jason: Mars has an atmosphere

Jason: and many extremophiles on earth live in harsher conditions than what is on Mars

Rich: I think you might be missing the point that the author of the article is saying

Jason: well it's saying that the earth is of perfect size

Jason: when reality is, earth could have been smaller or larger by orders of magnitude and still harbor life

Rich: true, I will grant you that the book the author sites is from 1946 so that might be a bit outdated

Rich: I don't think it could handle complex life like it does today

Rich: I just saw an article today that says that scientests think that they can prove that mars has life.

Jason: complex?

Jason: what do you mean complex

Jason: ?

Rich: however a couple of flakes of ice or something like that doesnt' constitute complex life

Rich: good question, I mean something like intelligent life

Rich: able to handle a species like humanity

Jason: earth can't even handle a species like humanity

Jason: look at all the people dying

Jason: it's only a matter of time

Rich: yes, but look at all the people living! I guess I dont' understand your argument

Jason: more people had died than lived

Rich: sure I think we have another 5 billion years or so

Jason: and the future looks pretty bleak

Jason: you really think so?

Rich: that's what I've always understood that the sun will burn out in another 5 billions years

Rich: why do u think the future is bleak?

Jason: well look at the world

Jason: lots of people dying

Jason: for no good reason

Jason: and looks like religion is going away

Rich: why do you think religion is going away?

Jason: just look at the statistics

Jason: most nations with Christian majorities have stagnated as far as faith goes

Jason: Americans are becoming less and less religious

Jason: and Europe is much farther along the road

Rich: true, but look at those nations like China where the Christian church is growing like crazy as well as in Africa

Jason: Christianity is growing in Africa mostly

Jason: but how much longer will that last?

Rich: you are just talking about the Western world

Jason: ?

Rich: Jesus said that heaven and earth might pass away but my words wont!

Rich: God is eternal

Rich: When I say the western world, I'm talking about the US and Western Europe

Jason: where else is Christianity growing?

Rich: China, Africa, UK, Latin America just to name a few

Jason: latin america has been Christian ever since the Portuguese and Spanish were there

Jason: what's changing?

Jason: and the UK is becoming less religious

Rich: the Christian church is growing

Rich: in the UK it used to be that way, but people are tired of secularism and living without hope

Jason: well sure

Jason: but you have to compare the growth rates with the population rates

Jason: Christians are becoming a smaller %

Rich: not like it used to be

Jason: you really think so?

Rich: yep, no doubt

Rich: the church is growing, it has experienced a decline and is certainly not in a majority in those places but it is growing

Rich: I used to live in Europe and it is amazing some of the things that are happening

Jason: The EU-funded European Social Survey to be published in April 2009 has found that only 12% of British people belong to a church.

Jason: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5030049/Britons-are-believers-of-fuzzy-faith-says-survey.html

Rich: remember that might be a formal church or a state run church but many people don't consider themselves part of a state run church (like the Anglican church)

Jason: over 15% of the UK said they have "no religion" in 2001

Rich: anyway, I think we are getting off your subject

Jason: well sure

Jason: but yah

Jason: yeah

Jason: your article

Jason: seems outdated

Jason: saying that if the earth were smaller or larger it couldn't harbor life

Rich: now that is not outdated

Rich: if the earth was a couple of million miles away from the sun or closer humanity would be unable to survive

Jason: ?

Jason: yeah but for how long

Jason: a few people have lived on the moon for a few days

Jason: and that was almost 40 years ago

Rich: with an incredible amount of equipment

Jason: and besides

Rich: remember the article is about 6 reasons to conclude that god exists

Rich: the first point is Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Jason: is that the case though?

Rich: the argument is about complexity and design

Jason: yeah

Jason: how does complexity imply design

Jason: ?

Rich: it is the classic Palin's watch analogy from philosphy

Rich: if I found a watch on the beach somewhere and examined it I would immediately conclude that this was designed and not randomly put together

Jason: yeah but the difference is that we already know that watches have designers

Jason: and second, so what?

Rich: I think you are making the authors point! the point is about design

Rich: the point is that we didnt' get here randomly

Jason: I agree

Jason: but how does complexity imply design?

Rich: if we did there would certainly be complex life on other planets

Jason: why should there be?

Rich: so far, no life on other planets to speak of

Jason: other planets have stuff that earth doesn't have

Rich: because if there is no God then out of the billions and billions of galaxies out there certainly life would have evolved randomly

Rich: but not intelligent life

Jason: ?

Jason: how do you know that

Jason: why does having a God matter in deciding whether life randomly evolves or not?

Rich: well, so far no aliens have shown up yet and all of our stargazing has brought us amazing pictures but no sign of life

Jason: yeah but what does that have to do with God?

Rich: because if is such an amazing coincidence that everythign came together at just the right time then that implies a designer

Jason: I don't see the coincidence

Rich: it hasn't happened by random chance anywhere else...thus evidence for design

Jason: and I don't see the random chance

Jason: what's so random about life evolving?

Jason: how do you know that life isn't deterministic?

Rich: why hasnt' it happened on the trillions of other planets in the universe?

Jason: there are plenty of other things that have even less probability

Jason: that happen on earth

Jason: like winning the lottery

Jason: and how do you know it hasn't happened?

Rich: no, the odds of winning the lottery are much greater than finding life on another planet

Jason: yeah but what about the guy that won the lottery twice

Rich: there are way more planets in the universe than number combinations to win the lottery!

Rich: double the amount of numbers, triple them!!! Not even close!!!

Jason: where are you getting it from

Jason: ?

Jason: where are you getting the odds from

Jason: I mean

Jason: just look at all the diversity of life here on earth

Jason: living in so many different environments

Jason: and that's just earth

Rich: simple math...how many numbers compromise the lottery vs. how many numbers of planets in our solar system

Rich: exactly, why doesnt it exist anywhere else?

Jason: who knows what other kinds of lifeforms could live in other ecosystems

Rich: true, but we havent' found it yet

Jason: so why are you saying it doesn't exist then?

Rich: I still think we are off base. If earth was not at a 23.5 degree angle on its axis then all life could be destroyed

Jason: ???

Jason: I'm pretty sure we could survived at a 23 degree angle or a 24 degree angle

Jason: and that's not an exact figure

Jason: the earth wobbles a lot

Jason: because the earth is not a perfect sphere

Jason: it's a geoid

Jason: it's called the Chandler wobble

Jason: it happens when things that aren't perfect spheres rotate

Jason: your website says the earth is so perfect and all that

Jason: I don't see that

Jason: it's actually fairly mundane as far as planets go

Jason: people used to believe the earth was a perfect circle

Jason: in the center of the universe

Jason: then it was a perfect sphere in the center of the universe

Jason: then it was a perfect sphere in a perfect orbit around the sun

Jason: then it was a perfect sphere in an elliptical orbit around the sun

Jason: then it was an imperfect sphere in an elliptical orbit around the sun

Jason: it keeps progressing to becoming less and less special

Jason: and people thought the sun was the center of the universe

Jason: and now we know we're just some arbitrary distance from the center of the milky way Galaxy

Jason: which we thought was the center of the universe too, but in fact that's when we learned there is no center of the universe

Jason: so we're not particularly special

Rich: I'm not saying that life doesnt exist on other planets, but we haven't discovered it yet and other complex life forms that exist on other planets haven't found us!

Rich: except for the fact that there are 5 billion human beings running around!

Jason: see

Rich: so far we haven't seen that anywhere else

Jason: I think that's the problem

Jason: you guys using old data

Jason: right now the earth's human population is estimated at 6.8 billion

Jason: it reached 5 billion back in 1987

Rich: sorry, but you make my point even stronger!

Jason: but yeah

Rich: Lets' assume the earth isnt' that special as you say....what about the othe r5 reasons to believe God exists

Jason: okay

Jason: your article mentions the eye

Jason: let's talk about the body in general

Jason: how is that evidence of GOd?

Rich: again it goes to complexity

Rich: goes to a designer

Rich: it all works perfectly, better that humans can design

Jason: woah time out

Jason: perfectly?

Jason: the human body seems pretty frail and imperfect if you ask me

Jason: that's why we have doctors

Rich: Ok, there are blidn people and people with glasses, I will concede that obviously

Jason: well yeah

Rich: the point is where did the concept of sight come from? what forces of nature determined that we need one?

Jason: what?

Jason: concept of sight

Jason: came from detecting photons

Jason: that's all it is

Jason: we can look at other animals and plants to identify a possible chain of events leading to our current eye

Rich: but our brain interprets those signals and acts on them

Rich: that's a stretch

Jason: ?

Rich: now we are really talking evolution it seems

Jason: not really

Jason: how is it a stretch

Jason: lots of animals have eyes

Jason: and lots of plants can detect light too

Rich: " a possible chain of events that lead to our current eye"

Rich: yes, but you are missing the point of where the eye came from!

Jason: ?

Jason: well now you're getting into teleology

Rich: why did nature determine that we need an eye? Many animals have an incredible sense of smell so that they barely need an eye

Jason: ?

Rich: no theology here

Jason: I didn't say theology

Jason: I said teleology

Jason: and why do you say nature determined we needed eyes

Jason: ?

Rich: sorry , misread that

Rich: I'm not saying that I'm asking rhetorically

Jason: well I don't think nature determined anything

Jason: in the sense that

Rich: I think it was either God or as most people woudl call it either "mother nature" or "random chance" etc.

Jason: well there's the problem

Jason: when I say nature

Jason: I mean like

Jason: the invisible hand of economics

Jason: it's just a shorthand way to describe a much more complex process

Jason: like

Jason: I'm pretty sure Adam Smith didn't expect the economy to be how it is today

Rich: ??? maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by economics, but how does econ descibe how we got here and why earth is the way it is etc?

Jason: I mean the global macroeconomy

Jason: well it seems fairly simple as to how we got here

Jason: I came from my mom

Jason: she came from her mom

Jason: and so forth

Rich: LOL

Rich: and who or what was the first mom? and how did she get here

Jason: why does there have to be a first mom?

Jason: because

Jason: each mom is different anyhow

Jason: just like how my mom is not exactly like my mom's mom

Jason: if you go far enough back

Jason: they could be really different looking from me

Jason: who's to say that if you go far back enough that there won't be any resemblance at all

Jason: I have black hair

Jason: what if you go all the way back and you see a mom with blonde hair

Jason: who knows

Jason: not just hair color, but skin color and eye color, and height and weight and all those variable

Jason: variables

Rich: I think that is the point of the article is that God does, because He created it all

Jason: yeah but your article doesn't explain why there is a need to say God did it

Rich: those are great variables but before the variables where did the first molecule or DNA come from?

Jason: well that

Jason: that's when you get into indivisible parts

Rich: I agree, it is merely designed to get you to think about His existence

Jason: I don't see any indivisible parts hindering a slow progression

Jason: DNA is just a bunch of nucleotides

Rich: I think we are going to back ourselves into the Big Bang.

Jason: ?

Jason: why

Rich: You keep talking about all these variables and nucleotides etc. and my question keeps comign back to where did they all come from

Jason: why do they have to come from anywhere

Jason: ?

Rich: you keep assuming that they just formed

Rich: they cant 'have just always existed or been there

Jason: why not?

Rich: cant build an argument on that

Jason: what are your reasons for saying that they can't "have always just existed"

Jason: ?

Rich: I think that is the intellectual equivalent of me just saying that "God did that" or "God created that"

Jason: is it?

Jason: seems much simpler

Jason: because it doesn't really imply anything

Rich: what doesnt' imply anything?

Jason: saying that things have always existed

Jason: because if you say god did it

Jason: then you have to explain god

Rich: EXACTLY!

Jason: but if you say it was always there

Jason: what is there to explain?

Jason: that's an end in itself

Jason: that seems like the base case

Rich: I can explain God's reasoning for doing it or his motivation or discover the why's behind His creationg

Rich: creation

Jason: what?

Jason: How does God reason?

Jason: I thought he was eternal

Jason: you said he was eternal

Jason: Reason is something that humans do

Rich: remember most of the great scientests and astronomers of the Middle Ages and even beyond that were strong Believers in God

Rich: He is both eternal and has reason.

Jason: yeah but Isaac Newton rejected the divinity of Jesus.

Rich: Jesus told us to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul and MIND!

Jason: and so did Thomas Jefferson

Jason: there were a lot of thinkers that weren't Christians

Jason: like Einstein

Rich: I'm not necessarily talking about Christian, just theists

Jason: yeah but you talk about God

Jason: there are a lot of different gods that people believe in

Jason: how do you know that all these great scientists believed in the same God that you do?

Jason: and a lot of our knowledge is based on observations by people who believed in many gods

Jason: like the ancient Greeks

Jason: for example Euclid

Jason: his contributions to Geometry changed the world forever

Jason: but he lived in 300 BC

Jason: same with Aristotle, and he was only around 30 years before that

Jason: his writing are influential even today

Jason: writings*

Jason: all the scientists and thinkers that you say were theists, they based their knowledge procured by polytheists

Jason: Aristotle was a very influential natural scientist

Jason: that's why we call that 8-legged animal using the name "octopus"

Jason: that's Greek

Jason: that's how influential he is

Jason: even in other languages the word for the animal is in many cases a translation of "octopus", i.e. "eight legged."

Chat session has ended.